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Trine PSN US release October 22nd - explanation thread

For discussion about Trine, released in 2009 for PC and on PSN. Mac & Linux versions released in 2010/2011.

Trine PSN US release October 22nd - explanation thread

Postby fb_joel » Tue Oct 20, 2009 3:34 pm (link to this post)

Trine is finally coming to the US PlayStation Store on October 22nd, 2009. We are very excited and can't wait to have the game out finally! :)

That said, there has been a lot of anger, confusion and disappointment concerning Trine and the PSN releases. There have been lots of comments all around the internet, and I decided to write this post after reading some comments on the US PlayStation.Blog. So I will use this thread to explain things from our point of view, as developers of the game. Please be prepared for a lengthy post...

First of all, we are very sorry for everyone who feels disappointed by the delays. :( It is unfortunate that things went like this and it certainly wasn't the way we planned. The original plan was to release Trine on PSN 1-2 weeks before PC. This was supposed to happen in June-July. We even had the first PSN version submitted before the PC version was finished. With this in mind, the publisher made a decision to start the manufacturing of the PC retail version and locked the shipping dates and marketing spends and so on. This is what you have to do to get a successful retail release and you can't really change it after this point.

The problem was that as inexperienced console developers, we did not anticipate all the issues that would lay down the road for the PSN version. I'm sure the publisher wasn't expecting it either - the game was essentially done and we thought it would be released on PSN shortly, just before or at the same time as the PC version. This is essential to get good sales because the PC version is going to get pirated a lot, which affects console version sales too.

Of course, things did not go to plan. The game came back from testing with a list of things to fix, and those needed to be fixed before the game could be submitted again. These were of the "if the user unplugs the controller while the level is loading, the game should do X" (not a real example) sort of things, or wrong version numbers, wrong error messages or such. All console manufacturers have this process and games need to adhere to these rules. There are certain instructions to follow but it's not always clear-cut how certain things need to be done, and thus it's not possible to prepare for everything. Anyhow, these issues are important to fix, and more often than not they are 30 minute jobs each, so we stayed late at the office and usually delivered a new build on the next day to the publisher, who in turn had to resubmit it. Each submission causes a number of weeks of delay, and we had to go through this multiple times. It started to get quite frustrating at the end, believe me... :|

When the European version was finally "ok", we were quite happy for a moment... And that brings me to the US delay. The reason why the US version is so late is a bit of a similar situation as the overall delay - we had the US version done around the same time as the European version and I think the publisher submitted it swiftly after hearing the European version was "ok". This probably only caused a week of delay or so. The rest is simply up to Sony, I believe (please note I do not actually know what happened after we had done our part, so this is purely guesswork). I think they wanted to give the game a good window with regards to other PSN titles/content, and that's how it ended up here, October 22nd.

Obviously we're not blind to the comments and other releases out there on PS3 right now, so from our point of view this whole mess has been and still is excruciatingly frustrating. Just imagine how it feels when you have worked extremely hard for 18 months, made a great game, and then all kinds of unwanted things happen, many of which you had very little influence on (we had lots of trouble with the PC release too, so all versions have suffered from a certain amount of issues). It's not a great feeling I can tell you that.

I hope this helps understand the story from our point of view - it has been a series of unfortunate events. We take the blame for some of them, and many others were simply things that were not really anybody's fault. Nevertheless, I hope that in the future we're able to do certain things that will prevent this kind of stuff from happening ever again - here's hoping!

Regarding the lack of online co-op, this is also something that we are acutely aware of. We've had to explain this many times in the past with our earlier games (just search the forums if you want), but here's the short version: Back in 2001-2004 when we were working on our first game, our game focused on great singleplayer and didn't have any multiplayer. All of our technical decisions reflected this, and a few years later, when we figured multiplayer would be a nice feature, we realized that there was no way to add it without significantly more time, resources and money. When we started working on Trine, we had to face the same question again - if we had included multiplayer, it would have added half a million US dollars to the budget, not to mention delay the game a lot. We didn't have that kind of money nor the time. This is why no version of Trine has online co-op, and it's looking unlikely that it would be released as a patch either. Sorry! :oops:

Pricing is not in our hands but I would like to say that Trine is one of the biggest downloadable games out there, and has very high production values. Trine has a reasonably long singleplayer (or local co-op), story-driven campaign that lasts 6-7 hours on average. Some players can complete it faster and some will take longer, especially if you want to hunt all the secret items and Trophies (including a Platinum Trophy).

I think Trine is a great game, and as developers, our ultimate goal is to create great games. All the business and marketing stuff comes second, that's not why we do this. So in short, we succeeded in the ultimate goal and more or less failed in the secondary goals. (And I know "great game" is very subjective - but I'm happy that most Trine players seem to share this sentiment, because at the end of the day, that's what gives us the energy and refuels our passion for future games.)

I would also like to point out that just because a game is distributed digitally doesn't mean that it has to be small. We believe in digital distribution and I'd like to think Trine is on the forefront of downloadable games and spearheads the way into the future, where games of all sizes and scopes have a chance of success if they are good.

Wow, this has been a long post. Ultimately we can only hope that you give Trine a chance - if you don't find the game appealing or the price is too high, then we respect that decision.

Finally, I would like to take this opportunity to thank everyone who has already bought the game, whether it be the US or European PSN version or the PC version. The positive comments give us the strength to continue creating great games and the money gives us the means. :)

And now, for those who have not yet entered the world of magic... Enjoy! Despite all the problems surrounding the business and marketing aspects of the game, the game itself should be great fun. We can't wait to hear the comments! :D


- Joel, Frozenbyte team
// Joel, Frozenbyte team
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Postby Heisem » Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:52 pm (link to this post)

Nice post, but you also need to see this situation as a gamer so you will understand how we feel. By the way, why is Nobilis posting in the PS blog when you guys should be the ones able to give the proper feedback of the game?, Nobilis totally screwed up the post by not replying those comments, i just can't understand how you couldn't see this comming...
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Postby odd69 » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:25 pm (link to this post)

None of that even matters, If gamers learned to appreciate great games and great developers and actually respect them they would see how much they are missing out.The game got delayed big fucking deal. I'll say that this is probably the best PSN game period and the most visually stunning out there.Sure the online co-op would bring much replay value and more people would buy it, even i was disappointed but that's not stopping me from buying this bad ass game. Honestly, who cares about Uncharted 2 and Demon's Soul, those are 64$ and Demon souls ain't that great , i bought it and i will sell it. The uncharted 2 demo i didn't like whatsoever. But I'll go ahead and say that this little game made from a small team will be better than all of them ,for me personally and way cheaper too wow that's a concept. I just don't understand why people are giving Frozen Byte so much shit. They have given us a game with meat on it and let me tell you psn is lacking games with actual meat.It's a shame that this guy has to explain himself to all these childish gamers who don't even deserve to play it. I just hope that these guys are not turned off from releasing more games on PSN. Gamers like me who appreciate games that are great, might suffer because of all this backlash and negativity.But i can't speak on behalf of the ps3 owners because the majority rules and like always, gamers like me and developers like Frozen Byte are the under dogs.

Oh and believe you me ,I'll defend this title and recommend this title until I'm blue in the face i assure you just so these guys get the credit they deserve. Let me get on the 20$ remarks. Please save 20$ and buy this game.It's not cheap to make a game this good.I'm sure these guys and gals lost much sleep and obviously have great taste in video games just because it's a side scroller(fan boy in me).But the point is that they deserve every fucking penny they have asked for and i will give it to them with a smile, and i will do it day one. Maybe you complainers should do the same and find out how better this title is compared to Critter crunch,Pixel junk, and the loads of puzzlers.Infact i dare say find a better title to download. Remember critics didn't give these developers the best downloadable game award for the fun of it, they gave it to them because they deserved it.Fair and square.

Guys @ Frozen Byte, every once in a while bring the price down so the tight wads can buy your title. If you take anything from your readers and FANS into consideration please give that a thought. I just think you guys deserve it. I'll buy it day one for 20$ and not complain but many Ps3'ers won't,but damn they are missing out. I say about a year from now do a temporary price cut, i promise people will buy it. A few games get this on psn so i feel it would benefit you guys the most,cause people think 20$ is way too high(but not me).

One last note, people complaining about a demo, well if you would use your brains these guys have a pc demo to try out. All you had to do was google trine and bam there you go i did it way back. I'm sure these guys won't be able to afford the bandwidth that Sony charges , but A pc demo does the job right?
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Postby fb_joel » Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:22 am (link to this post)

Thanks for the support. To be honest we can easily understand how the constant delays have made people feel. I mean for many people I'm sure the worst part was not knowing any firm dates, so they always had their hopes up for "this week". We couldn't really confirm it one way or another, because we usually didn't know. At some point we could figure out that it was "not this week" and I think we made a few posts that said that. I'm not sure if they helped or not... On our part, the worst part was knowing that every week that the game was not available, we'd lose sales and interest in the game. That's exactly what has happened but I hope that a lot of the "day one" buyers who now feel otherwise give the game another chance when the holiday season is over.

Special offers and such I can't really comment on. But I'm pretty sure there will be some eventually, it makes a lot of sense and I don't think there's any obstacles to that either. So we'll see... Demo is a "we'll see" too, although the chances are high that it will happen sooner rather than later.

As for the PS Blog stuff, Nobilis is the publisher of the game on PSN so that's why they they do all the "official" stuff. I don't think they were prepared for the amount of comments, heh...

Oh and for sure we have no ill feelings towards the PS3, PSN or Sony - I think they're all quite great actually, and I think our future games will be released on PSN too. No need to worry about that. :)
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Postby wolfboy » Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:27 am (link to this post)

I warned you guys early on the standard pricing for PSN games was $15 or less and people aren't used to paying more than that. It's on the same scale as releasing a $75 retail game when the standard is $60. You can count on the hardcores to buy it, but as you saw, the general PS3 owners are much less forgiving.

IMO, you should've tried to get Nobilis to price it at $15, as that is the perfect price point for an impulse buy, even for casual gamers that don't buy from the PSN store. Throw in a demo (which you should do asap) and you could've easily tipped a lot of people that were on the fence over. Less money per download, but more bites overall.

Anyway, best of luck. Hopefully, this experience didn't scare you away from releasing future PSN titles. And ditch Nobilis next time, they did a terrible job publishing/PR.
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Postby tharker89 » Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:45 pm (link to this post)

I know you guys can't say it publicly, but you need to rip Nobilis. They did a horrible job, IMO by leaving you and the gamers in the dark. Sony also needs to hear it for putting such a great game right in the middle of AAA titles. Too many people don't like the $20 price point because of the $60 they're dropping for UC2 and other titles.

I too wish you the best. I'll be picking it up. Just not sure when. (Tied up with other games)
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Postby odd69 » Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:35 pm (link to this post)

Heya guys @ frozen byte

I've for sure got you guys a few sales.I've been chatting with my friends at Nintendo life and a few of them have ps3's but didn't know about Trine, and after i linked them here they are going to make a purchase. We all like platformers infact i think old school gamers like them in general . They didn't seem to care about the pricing. Even though a few might pick up the pc version instead. Anyways i think I hyped them up so much i actually am so excited myself all i can think about is coming home from work today and play trine until friday early morning.Really though thank you guys for making this,it feels like you aimed it for the old school hardcore gamers and we appreciate it so so much. Thank you for still wanting to release future titles on PSN too that's a relief i assure you ,especially if you continue to release quality games for us to chew on.

:mrgreen:
ok questions questions questions
could you guys release something for wiiware PLEASE. wiiware lacks abit and i bet you guys can spice it up :D
Also im reading alot about a 360 version with online co -op i know you guys can't reply to that but im still going to ask, is this true? I know that there is no possible way you guys can afford to add online co-op but let me ask:
What would it take to (maybe) implement this? Could strong sales maybe even possibly make this happen?
I'm not worried about it whatsoever but i'm still kinda curious ya know.
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Postby fb_joel » Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:06 pm (link to this post)

Thanks guys. I hope you enjoy the game. :)

At the moment Trine is PSN+PC only, and I'm not sure if it's ever going to change. I guess I can say that if we had major problems with the release dates of the game, we've also had lots of issues and bad luck with platforms... For future games we're following all platforms and channels quite closely and WiiWare is one of those, but there's no immediate plans for it (this could change though - one of our concepts might fit WiiWare nicely so who knows what happens).

It's also fairly safe - and disappointing I'm sure - to say that I doubt any version of Trine will ever have online co-op (not taking into account possible sequels or expansions of course). Strong sales could have an effect on this but the chances are very slim. There's a couple of other factors at play too. However, on the good side, even if it's not much consolation right now, I think Trine will be the last game of ours with which we have to explain why there's no online multiplayer...
// Joel, Frozenbyte team
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Postby scabies » Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:42 am (link to this post)

Where's the US PSN version? I've been waiting all day for it and it still isn't in the store.
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Postby bronxmixed » Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:45 am (link to this post)

I really feel bad for you guys. This was a game many people, including myself, was looking forward to playing during the SUMMER in North America when we go through a dry spell of games to play. If i was working in your company i would really have a talk with my fellow employees about addressing Sony/PSN themselves.

Sony offically screwed you out of tons of sales that you would have had. Im not saying that your not going to have people buying this game, but i doubt you will have the amount of people buying the game that you would have had over the summer months. i know you guys can not be too happy right now. Plus Sony asking $20 for the game is hard for a lot of people to swallow because now in the fall/winter all the AAA titles are coming out that people will be buying. Plus lack of demo will hurt those who usually buy because they like what they got to play, and want to play more.

I really hope you guys at least break even for the work you put in. I would hate to see you guys go under because of things Sony choose to do with holding this game back.

I look forward to seeing what you guys put out in the future and hopefully you wont have any delays like you did with Trine. Good luck :)
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Postby friedrice » Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:55 am (link to this post)

Wow, half million dollars for online play? Anyway, I think it's better to include local than online if it came down to either or for whatever reason. Consoles are for having friends and family over and having fun, PCs are for having fun on your own. Which is why every single game I own for my PS3 has good local play. I look forward to adding Trine to my collection if it actually is released on the 22nd.... (3 hours left in the day)


Anyway, everyone is dogging on Sony, which if anyone actually took the time to read what the developer said, it's not really Sony's fault either. We should be happy that Sony has standards when it comes to developers making games, especially small ones who make games for the PSN. What if you hit the X button while the game was loading and it deleted your save data? Or your controller battery died and it turned off the PS3? Regulations are there for a reason and while some are probably annoying and pointless, as a whole we now know that while playing Trine and the controller does die, we will all see the proper Sony sanction message :D
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Postby fb_joel » Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:10 am (link to this post)

bronxmixed, is that you from the PS Blog? :) Just replied there...

Anyhow, much like friedrice says, we don't actually blame Sony for the delays. It's just how things go, and we're a lot wiser now... There's always room for improvement, for Sony, the publisher, and ourselves. We're a lot wiser now that's for sure... so in the future we shouldn't really have this many problems.

And the one other thing I wanted to say... Trine is now out there on the US PlayStation Store! Finally! :)

Oh and I don't actually know what happens if you unplug the controller while Trine is loading a level. It was just an example I made up. I think it should display a message to reconnect the controller. Hopefully it does that. I certainly hope it won't destroy save game data! :mrgreen: (But yes these are the reasons why console manufacturers have such rules.)
// Joel, Frozenbyte team
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Postby bronxmixed » Fri Oct 23, 2009 1:12 pm (link to this post)

Yeah that was me (mixedkidbx). I think i might have worded my post on the blog a little bit wrong. My apologies if things came off in the wrong way about how you guys felt about Sony US. Sucks you cant edit on there.
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Postby Malygris » Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:33 pm (link to this post)

I think multiplayer is overrated. Give me a solid single-player experience (like Trine) any day of the week, particularly when budgets and time are tight and the inclusion of multi will almost certainly have a detrimental effect on the single-player component.
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Postby dragonmagician » Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:43 pm (link to this post)

Two things I wanted to comment on, the game itself and the release date.

The game. I brought it yesterday, as I have anticipated the game since I heard about it. I only finished the Astral Academy, and it is looking good so far.
+ the game feels very old-school PC (in a good way), and with amazing graphics.
+ I like the processing trophy message. I hate waiting for the trophy pop up in a game when I know I have unlocked a trophy.
+ loved the control mapping.
+ the game play feels similar to LittleBigPlanet (especially with co-op). Too bad LBP editor cannot creates something as complex as Trine.
+ inclusion of a platinum trophy. Hopefully I can get it.
- don't like the generic trophy icons. For a beautiful game like this, I expect some beautiful trophy icons.

Here's my take on the release of Trine. (And it is released in Canada as well, so the title is wrong :))
- the initial plan for releasing in June-July before PC was perfect. Releasing before PC would give a lot more PSN sales, and (at least for me) the July period was a dry period for PS3 games.
- Of course, with Uncharted 2 and Demon's Souls just released, and Ratchet & Crack about to be released, this is fairly busy release schedule. I have so many games backed logged right now. I still brought Trine on release day to show support for PSN exclusives, but will probably not finish this game in a while.
- The positive to this release is that there are 1million+ more PS3 users now with the PS3 slim launch.
- it has been good that FB_Lauri has been communicating on these boards these past months. Gamers hate waiting for game releases, and communication with devs at lease make the waiting a little easier.
- the price was not an issue for me, but I can see it being an issue for many people. Hopefully, we will see some discount (to $15) around Christmas, or around spring time next year.
- I really hope that sales for this game are good so that we will get more games from Frozenbyte. Unfortunately, I am a Sony fanboy, so I hope you stay PSN exclusive :).

Some general questions:
- any plans for creating a dynamic theme? The beautiful art in this game should make for an amazing theme, maybe with the 3 heroes running around or something. Not sure how big the market for dynamic theme is, but I will definitely buy it if it is well implemented (ie; LBP theme).
- any news on future patches or DLC?
- any hints on next project?
- any interest in the Sony motion controller?

Thanks for creating a great game.
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Postby SevWolf » Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:34 pm (link to this post)

First of all I'd like to say, thank you for the explanation and, on behalf of everybody, sorry for the sh1t and doubt everybody(including me) have given you.
I saw it on the store today, and I remembered all the comments about people skipping on the game cause others like UC2 (which is my GOTY :P) and demon's soul are releasing. I was this close to skipping it aswell but decided not to, seeing as how much I was anticipating it since its first trailer. This was the best choice I have done in a while, I've played only the first seven levels ( pretty busy lately) and I am completely blown away. The graphics are insane (great work guys), gameplay is addictive, music is AWESOME (kudos to the composer), and atmosphere is just.....WOW, last time I've found myself this immersed (where I put ALL my concentration on the game, and think of NOTHING else) was back in the PS2 era.... Bioshock, Dead Space, MGS4, UC2 these are my favorite games this gen and non could immerse me as much as this game (Even though Bioshock was really close with its great atmosphere :P)
Now I realized that you guys put a lot of work....believe me I know how it feels when you creatively put a lot of work into something only for it to be presented/placed/ or seen by the public in a wrong way.
I hope you read this, and if you do I have one request...you said that you began working on your next game (good luck :D) but please make sure you release it on a console, I have both a PS3 and a 360, but my PC sucks ass (it couldn't even run the Trine demo :cry: ).
P.S In my opinion, this is up there with Shadow Complex and Flower as the greatest of the greatest Downloadable games and could EASILY be released as a CONSOLE (I know you released it on PC) retail game.
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Postby Mr. ShadowStealer » Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:39 pm (link to this post)

^^ I pre-ordered this game as soon as I could and I haven't regretted that decission.

Also isn't there this old saying: "Live and learn" which in Finnish means Mene ja tiedä. Or something like that, meaning that you learn more as you live older. :)

Anyway, now you have this great list of things to keep in mind when you are beta testing and debugging your next game for consoles so I hope there will be less delays with your future games now. ;)

Just keep thinking positively because I would assume that your budget is at the positive side rather than on the negative. :D
Not all of you have äää's and ööö's :P
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Postby scabies » Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:57 pm (link to this post)

I bought it on PSN last night. Looking good guys, it's a ton of fun :D
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Postby fb_joel » Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:43 pm (link to this post)

Thanks guys. :) Some random ramblings:

No idea on themes... We're not too big on many "extra" things, but we'll see what happens. Same goes for the motion controller...

We're trying to get the 1.01 patch out to US PSN (here's the thread) and the demo for both. After those, I think the game is in very good shape and doesn't need any technical fixes at least. DLC and such is undecided at the moment.

As for future projects, they will be released on consoles and PC. Hopefully as many platforms as possible to be honest. Our next project will probably be a bit of a surprise or shock, but it will be good. Should be announced early next year... :) (Just for information, we've been working on two projects at once for many years now and that's the case at the very moment too.)
// Joel, Frozenbyte team
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Postby Gavelwrench » Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:02 am (link to this post)

Hey guys,

Just wanted to jump in and say congrats on the awesome game. Just picked it up on PSN tonight, I tried the PC demo a month or so ago and was waiting for the PSN version to pick it up. Love the controls and the physics from the first few levels I've played, and it looks gorgeous. I've been there before waiting for QA testing and getting reports of strange events that lead to bugs, as release windows slip by -- it's definitely frustrating :) It's too bad about the timing on PSN, but I'm glad it's finally here! Hope everything goes well with sales, PS3 owners and especially platforming fans really need to play this game. All the best!
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Postby dogbitescheese » Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:02 am (link to this post)

So I'm on the last level of the game , but I can already say that I'm really satisfied with this game, I think it's one of the best PSN titles out there and definitely worth the 20 bucks. I was wondering if you guys are actually making a profit out of this game? I really hope you are , because this is one of my favorite games this year.
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Postby fb_joel » Tue Nov 17, 2009 5:09 pm (link to this post)

Thanks. It remains to be seen how successful Trine becomes, but it's not a failure at least. We're quite happy with the sales (although we don't really know 100%). It probably hasn't become profitable yet but I think it will eventually, and in any case it should make it easier for us to do great games in the future too. So that's good. :)
// Joel, Frozenbyte team
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Postby Ardoreal » Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:34 pm (link to this post)

I think this kind of outreach needs to be commended. I like that you folks have made yourselves accessible. I appreciate the human comments and the down to earth attitude.

We gamers need to appreciate the wonderful game that was crafted for us. I will be spreading the word that people need to try this game. I realize the business world is not forgiving and is often times harsh, but for what its worth this game is a classic.

There are a lot of times where people lose sight of the true treasures over superficial matters.
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